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14 January 2018 @ 10:11 am
В чем нам врал Дюма-отец: вино в романе "Три мушкетера" (1)  

"- Так что все мы при деньгах? - спросил д'Артаньян.
- Только не я, - возразил Атос. - Мне так понравилось испанское вино Арамиса, что я велел погрузить в фургон наших слуг бутылок шестьдесят, и это сильно облегчило мой кошелек." (с) Три мушкетера

В чем нам в этом фрагменте "врет" Дюма-отец? :)

Большинство из вас верно оценило и определило место обмана. действие романа "Три мушкетера" происходит в 1627-1628 годах. Именно в эти годы происходила осада Ла Рошели, командовал которой кардинал Ришелье.

Однако же в реальной истории англичанин Кенельм Дигби произведет первую мощную, крепкую и стойкую к транспортировке бутылку только в 1652 году, но даже тогда это будет единичная партия, а технология даже не будет запатентована. По-настоящему, массово, вино встретится с бутылкой не раньше 1690-1700 годов. Но и тогда она будет производиться строго под заказ постоялых дворов, гостиниц и трактиров и будет служить исключительно для хранения в течение года вина, купленного в пору урожая бочкой и розлитого "в свою тару".

Современные коллекции "стеклянных печатей" 1700-1720 годов - это одни из самых редких и необычных коллекций.

ВО времена же нашего романа бутылка - это редкость, чуть меньшая, чем бриллиант на пальце д'Артаньяна из первой книги. Дюжина бутылок стоит примерно как хорошая скаковая лошадь, то есть без учета самого вина Атосу пришлось бы выложить за "шестьдесят бутылок" цену ПЯТИ хороших лошадей.

Мы все, безусловно, любим графа де ла Фер, но помним, что у него за душой редко водилась сумма большая, чем на "выпить и закусить". Более того, разговор происходит после того, как Атос проиграл в кости все до последней копейки и отыграл 100 пистолей только поставив на кон своего слугу, Гримо! Поэтому ни о каких 60 бутылках речь идти не могла в принципе.

И не шла, конечно. :)

 
 
 
Spartanusspartanus on January 14th, 2018 07:25 am (UTC)
А в чём же тогда бедные мушкетёры вино возили с собой?? :)

И из чего, кстати, пили обычно? Все эти "бутылка доброго бургундского вина с каплуном" - это что на самом деле должно было быть?

Edited at 2018-01-14 07:26 am (UTC)
daily_winegraphdaily_winegraph on January 14th, 2018 07:50 am (UTC)
Кувшин из бочки из погреба
(no subject) - spartanus on January 14th, 2018 08:12 am (UTC) (Expand)
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а теперь представьте, - posadnik on January 18th, 2018 06:45 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: а теперь представьте, - zolika_ru on January 19th, 2018 07:46 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - sunlands on January 17th, 2018 07:42 pm (UTC) (Expand)
ээээ... - posadnik on January 18th, 2018 07:02 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: ээээ... - frustratio on January 22nd, 2018 05:26 am (UTC) (Expand)
Н-да, - posadnik on January 22nd, 2018 05:09 pm (UTC) (Expand)
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(Кротко) как иллюстрации - posadnik on January 22nd, 2018 05:38 pm (UTC) (Expand)
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"канонический мушкетер" (тм) - posadnik on January 22nd, 2018 05:44 pm (UTC) (Expand)
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барбада киргуду... - pratt_747 on January 21st, 2018 08:22 am (UTC) (Expand)
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(no subject) - sery_krot on January 22nd, 2018 12:39 pm (UTC) (Expand)
GoldenWormgoldenworm on January 14th, 2018 07:26 am (UTC)
Черт подери! Но как же господа мушкетеры обходились без бутылок? Не возили же они за собой вино бочонками? Или у них винные трактиры были на каждом углу?
daily_winegraphdaily_winegraph on January 14th, 2018 07:51 am (UTC)
Да, харчевни, трактиры, постоялые дворы. Атос в одном из таких запирался в подвале и пьянствовал, если цитировать роман :)
(no subject) - mashashnaider on January 14th, 2018 10:34 am (UTC) (Expand)
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(no subject) - daily_winegraph on January 15th, 2018 01:50 am (UTC) (Expand)
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Тетеревятникearlyhawk on January 14th, 2018 07:48 am (UTC)
Испортил сказку!
daily_winegraphdaily_winegraph on January 14th, 2018 07:51 am (UTC)
Еще только начал :)
(no subject) - earlyhawk on January 14th, 2018 07:53 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - daily_winegraph on January 14th, 2018 08:27 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - earlyhawk on January 14th, 2018 05:17 pm (UTC) (Expand)
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(no subject) - gur64 on January 14th, 2018 12:26 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Дон: pic#103684229dr_eburg on January 14th, 2018 08:47 am (UTC)
Не хочу вас расстраивать, но Винни Пух - это не настоящий медведь.
Guillaume Cadenet: School Masterregent on January 14th, 2018 08:56 am (UTC)
Он себя таки считает настоящим.
"Сова, открывай! Медведь пришёл."
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(no subject) - posadnik on January 17th, 2018 08:39 am (UTC) (Expand)
Моё Имя: Starsollo on January 14th, 2018 08:58 am (UTC)
Каналья!
lev_usyskin: портретlev_usyskin on January 14th, 2018 09:11 am (UTC)
там и со 100 пистолями есть вопросы. Имеется исследование , что в разных частях ТМ устойчиво дается два или даже три (не помню) курса перевода пистолей в экю - что говорит о нескольких авторах, каждый из которых имел свои представления о вопросе. причем ни оно их них не соответствовало исторической реальности.
daily_winegraphdaily_winegraph on January 14th, 2018 09:11 am (UTC)
Про пистоли еще поговорим, да :)
(no subject) - Мария Романенко on January 17th, 2018 11:46 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - sery_krot on January 22nd, 2018 12:44 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - lev_usyskin on January 22nd, 2018 12:45 pm (UTC) (Expand)
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lev_usyskin: портретlev_usyskin on January 14th, 2018 09:12 am (UTC)
меня в свое время удивили бутылки у Рабле сплошь и рядом. Вот что это? Блажь переводчика Любимова? Или в оригинале так?
litophagelitophage on January 14th, 2018 09:22 am (UTC)
Скорее всего, слово "бутылка" было, но означало нечто слегка другое. А советские переводчики об этом не задумывались, да и если б задумались - где им информацию то брать? Я с подобной фигней столкнулся в переводе финской повести "За спичками" (там реалии более современные, проблема в наличии в финском слов, похожих на русские, но с другим значением).
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Ирина Корсаковаenery on January 14th, 2018 09:16 am (UTC)
Что там бутылки!))
У него в начале романа госпожа Бонасье брюнетка, а в конце миледи травит блондинку.))
На мой вопрос в детстве - с чего такая разница, мама посмеялась и сказала, что вероятно Дюма в тот период сменил подружку.
Последний гипербореецhyperboreus on January 14th, 2018 09:51 am (UTC)
А ваша мама на язык остра! )
(no subject) - uglich_pf on January 14th, 2018 01:57 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - daily_winegraph on January 14th, 2018 09:51 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - lev_usyskin on January 14th, 2018 10:02 am (UTC) (Expand)
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(no subject) - enery on January 14th, 2018 06:40 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Кvalenox on January 14th, 2018 09:56 am (UTC)
А Шекспир вообще врал непадецки.
Одни сигареты "Друг" чего стоят!
daily_winegraphdaily_winegraph on January 14th, 2018 10:05 am (UTC)
Это были не сигареты, а папиросы, и не "Друг", а "Наша марка" и вообще это был Булгаков!
(no subject) - valenox on January 14th, 2018 10:21 am (UTC) (Expand)
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(no subject) - valenox on January 14th, 2018 10:24 am (UTC) (Expand)
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dedmazaidedmazai on January 14th, 2018 10:23 am (UTC)
Эх... а сколько бутылок осушали Шико и брат Горанфло... Последняя четверть 16 века:-(

*Расстроился*
daily_winegraphdaily_winegraph on January 14th, 2018 10:24 am (UTC)
Угу :)
dimmoff: pic#126032383dimmoff on January 14th, 2018 10:36 am (UTC)
А испанское вино-то хоть было или и с этим тоже засада?
daily_winegraphdaily_winegraph on January 14th, 2018 10:38 am (UTC)
Засада - это будет в третьей серии, она уже написана :)
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(no subject) - daily_winegraph on January 16th, 2018 02:15 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - khristi_yanika on January 16th, 2018 02:27 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - daily_winegraph on January 16th, 2018 02:35 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - khristi_yanika on January 16th, 2018 02:42 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - daily_winegraph on January 16th, 2018 02:49 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ctpahh_u_k on January 18th, 2018 07:14 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - eddie_blackarch on January 16th, 2018 07:42 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - khristi_yanika on January 16th, 2018 11:37 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - eddie_blackarch on January 16th, 2018 07:28 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Serge ChSerge Ch on January 14th, 2018 10:51 am (UTC)
ни о чем Дюма не соврал. Он использовал слово bouteille, которое во Франции 17 века использовалось не для стеклянных бутылок, а для глиняных. В которых хранили и перевозили вино. Эти бутейи были разного размера, в том числе и маленькие.
daily_winegraphdaily_winegraph on January 14th, 2018 11:00 am (UTC)
Нет, потому что в эпизоде пьянки Атоса трактирщик убивается не столько по выпитому вину, сколько по разбитым бутылкам.
(no subject) - aleksclan on January 14th, 2018 11:06 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - Serge Ch on January 14th, 2018 11:27 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - aleksclan on January 14th, 2018 11:30 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - daily_winegraph on January 14th, 2018 11:57 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - khristi_yanika on January 16th, 2018 02:13 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - daily_winegraph on January 16th, 2018 02:14 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - khristi_yanika on January 16th, 2018 02:22 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - khristi_yanika on January 16th, 2018 02:21 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - daily_winegraph on January 16th, 2018 02:23 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - khristi_yanika on January 16th, 2018 02:25 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - daily_winegraph on January 16th, 2018 02:34 am (UTC) (Expand)
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(no subject) - vic_nikob on January 17th, 2018 08:37 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - daily_winegraph on January 17th, 2018 09:37 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - vic_nikob on January 17th, 2018 10:07 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - Serge Ch on January 14th, 2018 11:35 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - daily_winegraph on January 14th, 2018 11:55 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - Serge Ch on January 14th, 2018 12:16 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - daily_winegraph on January 14th, 2018 12:27 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - Serge Ch on January 14th, 2018 12:46 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - daily_winegraph on January 14th, 2018 12:48 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - Serge Ch on January 14th, 2018 12:50 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - daily_winegraph on January 14th, 2018 12:52 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - rw_15 on January 17th, 2018 10:39 am (UTC) (Expand)
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(no subject) - daily_winegraph on January 14th, 2018 12:42 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - veliger on January 14th, 2018 03:12 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - daily_winegraph on January 14th, 2018 03:23 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - daily_winegraph on January 14th, 2018 12:05 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - Serge Ch on January 14th, 2018 12:23 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ivanrak on January 14th, 2018 12:32 pm (UTC) (Expand)
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(no subject) - homelessnicola on January 14th, 2018 04:43 pm (UTC) (Expand)
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(no subject) - homelessnicola on January 14th, 2018 05:12 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - daily_winegraph on January 14th, 2018 05:14 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - homelessnicola on January 14th, 2018 05:47 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - daily_winegraph on January 14th, 2018 05:48 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - homelessnicola on January 14th, 2018 06:07 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - daily_winegraph on January 14th, 2018 06:21 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - homelessnicola on January 14th, 2018 06:42 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - Sergey Tolokin on January 16th, 2018 02:45 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - eddie_blackarch on January 16th, 2018 07:59 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - homelessnicola on January 16th, 2018 02:58 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - khristi_yanika on January 16th, 2018 02:11 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - daily_winegraph on January 16th, 2018 02:14 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - Сергей Сергеевич on January 17th, 2018 04:41 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - daily_winegraph on January 17th, 2018 04:59 pm (UTC) (Expand)
azesh_78azesh_78 on January 14th, 2018 11:38 am (UTC)
так, как они бухали- я бы не удивился, если бы Атос загрузил 60 бочонков, а переводчик не поверил А.Дюма и смягчил, чтобы не травмировать советского читателя столь явной пропагандой алкоголизма:)) Ответ можно узнать, прочитав оригинал!
daily_winegraphdaily_winegraph on January 14th, 2018 12:15 pm (UTC)
60 бочонков в один фургон - это не враз погрузишь :)
(no subject) - valenox on January 14th, 2018 03:32 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - azesh_78 on January 14th, 2018 11:09 pm (UTC) (Expand)
turbolunokhodturbolunokhod on January 14th, 2018 11:44 am (UTC)
Вот поэтому пришелец из 10 века и не знал-как вскрыть склянку с бобами)))



Edited at 2018-01-14 11:45 am (UTC)
uglich_pfuglich_pf on January 14th, 2018 02:01 pm (UTC)
Хороший фильм:)
TAndraaspasiaroma on January 14th, 2018 12:13 pm (UTC)
Значит, им было-таки не очень просто жить. Не только туалетов не было. Но и бутылок
daily_winegraphdaily_winegraph on January 14th, 2018 12:14 pm (UTC)
Трудно жили, не то слово! :)
(no subject) - aspasiaroma on January 14th, 2018 12:15 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - Oleg Ryazanov on January 17th, 2018 08:06 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - sunlands on January 17th, 2018 08:10 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - aspasiaroma on January 17th, 2018 08:14 pm (UTC) (Expand)